I think Portland is still happening, best offer if includes Avdija and Ja or Scoot Sharpe and picks, maybe Mitch for Clingan. Queta for Carlson? Hopefully no Rob Will
Ja to Blazers to be rerouted to Boston or Avdija Scoot, Sharpe or camara and Yang to Boston? Ja Dame JB Clingan Camara could be a lineup as could Scoot White/sharpe Avdija, Tatum FA Big Or Scoot Murphy Avdija Tatum Mamukeilashvilli?
hoping for Ja Murphy Simons or Kuminga Avdjia Tatum Clingan
Portland now seems to be the top candidate but would have to give up Avdija and or Clingan and seem to be hesitant to. Been a long time since 77 the longest drought now since the Knicks won? What is Charlotte doing?
I'm curious: if the Celtics were going to win another title with JT/JB, what would that offense need to look like? I actually don't have a problem with their default style: maxing out the spacing mitigates Tatum's weakness driving to the hoop and makes the passing reads easier for both JT and JB.
My concern is that they don't have a counter when defenses key in on this in the playoffs. Neither guy can pass well enough to really punish doubles/help defense, and the rest of the roster doesn't have the chops to drive against a rotating defense. The title team worked because Jrue Holiday was a real, starter caliber point guard and Porzingis/Horford were centers that can space the floor. So you had a Jrue pick and roll to fall back on, true 5 out spacing, and a defense with no weak link. I don't think the Celtics have the cap room to replicate that.
You make a good point. With JT and JB, the ideal system involves legitimate spacing across the board, along with a guard who can invert the floor (operate in the dunker spot, screen for bigs, be a roller) so that mismatches generate on the fly and cutters can add additional rim-pressure.
When Holiday was traded, that floor inversion left with him. Don't get me wrong, there are other ways to win with JT and JB, but finding the pieces will also be a tough ask, especially as the team continues to naturally get more expensive.
Even if Brad Stevens does find a way to get the necessary pieces together, how long can that iteration of the roster last before another retooling prospect needs to occur?
Getting Tatum to lean into his playmaking and post work, while surrounding him with athletes who can score on the two primary levels, makes the most sense at this point (from a cost + retool perspective).
At least, that's where my opinion is currently leading, if we operate under the assumption Brown won't be back next season.
I'm intrigued by JT in the post with cutters whirling around as a counter, but it feels like it leans into his least efficient skills (rim pressure and passing) at the expense of his strength (reliably generating 3 point looks and attacking off the catch).
Operating under the trade JB assumption, I feel like a fast guard that isn't a defensive liability (probably can't swing De'Aaron Fox, but that's the archetype) could work? That, or a Sengun-style center that can pass from the elbow instead of having Tatum manage that.
I just struggle because Coby White just signed for 25M a year. That's basically the "minimum" level of guard talent I think the JT/JB combo need to contend and his salary is out of reach for the Celtics. So I think you're stuck trading real rotation pieces to get a better fit. Maybe you trade White for a lead guard, hope Scheierman/Walsh/Hugo can fill White's role, and roll the dice on Queta as your center? Maybe you can get Kornet or a comparable backup center in the trade market.
I’d argue that passing is Tatum’s best skill outside of scoring. He’s one of the best playmaking forwards in the NBA, and the clear-cut best passer on the current roster. His AST% has stat between 16.4% and 20.5% over the past few years, which puts him among the elite front court playmakers.
As for rim-pressure, in the two seasons before his injury, he shot 72% at the rim, which is higher than JB has in his career (not a knock on JB at all, just using him to illustrate my point). Granted JB’s rim frequency is higher, but Tatum is certainly capable of being a rim-pressure guy, I just wouldn’t want that for him post injury, which is why I think the post would be a good option for him.
In terms of counters, I think it’s more about getting creative with the way you manipulate the defense. Screening actions, where the decoy’s are being run, and why. Inverting the floor, and most importantly, finding ways to get into the paint and make decisions. Ideally, you want a guard who can do some of this - it’s kind of why I sold myself on Collin Sexton after the season ended.
Standard Celtic practice when you don't win and especially when knocked out in the first round, you have to look to get back to the top. In reality JB has been offered for AD, KD, and Giannis, 3 future HOF and on the last 2 Brad valued him as equal and wouldn't give up a ton extra. Any other GM would have did the same but many would have pulled the trigger and given up a ton of players and picks. Don't think for a second Brad and JB have not been in communication. As Tim K and Brad have said having 2 supermax players creates challenges. We really can't have 2 guys in their 30's making $60M-$70M+ so now is the time to sell high and try to get JB to a destination that isn't a Washington or Sacramento lol. Watch the Jazz, Spurs, Suns, Blazers maybe NOLA or the Hawks. Brad also needs to consider not loading up an eastern competitor, why unless the Hawks are willing to part with multiple key pieces, that may not happen. Jaylen Brown on the Hawks without taking Johnson and a few of Flemings/Daniels Okongwu/Ejiofor, Rissacher would not be good. I am sure they are countering with Kuminga which may not be bad. instead of Johnson. Have had a weird feeling about Dylan Harper and the C's for some time??
I would tentatively add GSW as a potential landing spot - they have the young guys and draft picks to make an interesting offer. Although I'd want to steer clear of absorbing Butler's contract, which makes things tough.
I do agree, though, that this move feels somewhat driven by cap flexibility, both now and in the years to come. I would be open to sending JB to Atlanta, but like you, I would want a return that stopped them from becoming a powerhouse in the process.
As for Harper, I think that could make a ton of sense, i'm just not sure the Spurs would move on from him after the rookie season he had. From Boston's side, any deal with the Spurs should start and stop with Harper being the first name put on the table, imo.
Hey AT, Not sure on GSW don't think they have any young players we value and would have to include Butler or Steph to match salaries , and agree run from Butler! Charlotte may be interesting with this $40M exception but would need to include Knueppel or Miller and Reid? I know many are not big on him but I would be after Ja Morant for White or this exception. Ja with the J's, or if JB gone with Knueppel Reid and JT? I have no concerns taking Ja especially for White's bad contract and Hauser or picks, Do you think Brad can get Turner to fill the Vucevic spot? Simons back? Agree with Spurs No harper no deal.
I’m probably a little higher on Podz and Moody than I should be, but agree matching salaries is tough.
As for Charlotte, their TPE doesn’t make a difference here. Brown earns more than the TPE, and you can’t add players salaries and a TPE together to get to Brown’s number - goes against the CBA Rules.
Charlotte do have other ways of getting there, though, so they’re not out of the race
I like Moody, but think Scheierman is better than Podz so he is somewhat redundant. If they still had Kuminga that might have worked as it may with Hawks if they give other players. Would you do JB scheierman for Kuminga, Rissacher Flemings, and Okongwu?
Hi Adam. At the end of the season, I felt that it made more sense to trade Tatum for major pieces that add up to his salary (throw in an extra $10M for Hauser, too) to get more of the major complementary pieces. I chose to keep brown over Tatum in my thinking because of the leadership that he pulled off during the regular season.
IMHO, the team wasn't missing Tatum per se in the finals, but a dominant big man and another guard. I don't see Tatum as having the same leadership skills as Brown.
If the toothpaste is out of the tube, then we have to get rid of Brown, but I am hoping not.
If it is possible for the Cs to user the MLE and TPE, we can get closer to true contention while getting ourselves in the position to break the cap the year after.
While I think your premise is fair, and the reasoning is sound, I'm on the opposite side here. Brown is a great player, but by all impact metrics, he's an All-Star. Tatum, on the other hand, is a superstar. I think it's somewhat easier to replace what you lose in Brown, rather than what you lose in Tatum.
Nevertheless, the fact is that it feels like one of the two will have to go. It's the easiest way to ease the cap sheet, create flexibility and open up new possibilities. Some will prefer Brown to go, others for Tatum.
As for leadership...I can't argue that Brown shone in that role last season. However, I do think there are multiple ways to define a leader and what that looks like. My question to you is whether your superstar needs to be the true leader on a roster, or whether should Brown leave, that's something Stevens must try and find on the market
Good question. We had Horford and Holliday as the leaders in the past. Smart was a leader. My thought is that Brown is a great combination of both leader and star which is really powerful. I don't think that he is a top 5 player, but he is more of a captain than anyone else on the team which put him into the MVP discussion last year.
The other reason for trading Tatum instead of Brown is that we could see what the team became with Brown leading, we really don't know what that is for Tatum. During the season without Tatum it felt more real what was missing from the team and it didn't feel like Tatum to me.
I say that within the context of the new CBA. It is not that I don't want or love having Tatum on the team, but I felt that he didn't yet fit in with the new flow of the team. It was Joe and Jaylen's team last year and it had a different feel to it. I would rather get 2 or 3 high quality stars or sub-star players to bring more balance to the team and fit into the Joe/Jaylen feel.
By the way, I miss your top 10 on Celtics Blog where you broke down the plays.
That’s fair. Brown + the current roster is proven, whereas Tatum leading a team isn’t. I would hope, given Tatum’s skill set, he can take his game to a new level if he’s given the opportunity to spearhead everything like Brown was last year (albeit under totally different circumstances).
The ideal pathway would be keeping them both. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem likely now, so if Brown does go, I hope we get a similar return of 2-3 good players who can make a genuine difference (plus a ‘grab em by the collar’ type leader)
Ahh, I miss writing those, too! I’ve toyed with something like that over here, but that 10 Takeaways is a CelticsBlog staple, and I never wanted to be copying what works for them. I have toyed with doing something like 3×3×3 (3 things on offense, 3 on defense, 3 takeaways) but not sure it’s what everyone would want.
The Brown / Tatum pairing has two issues in today's NBA:
1) They are both on SUPERmax contracts. Brown making $60m now and assuredly wants an extension that will take him over $70m. And Tatum will want same. It will only get harder and harder to build a roster around that.
2) Their skillset is too similar. Yeah, we've been hearing that for years and they still won a title together. But then you had Horford and KP as above-average bigs and Holiday's skill + poise. I'm not sure Boston can reload around JB and JT if you're paying them both $70m per year to age 35. Boston will soon have to give both Pritchard and Queta raises...or find a way to replace them.
It's not that Brown is a bad player or a bad teammate. I think it's more a reflection of economics in today's NBA. Jalen Duren is ELIGIBLE for a supermax, but you can bet the Pistons don't want to pay that and would run into the same team building issues if Duren and Cade were both highly paid. And Thompson extension is waiting in the wings.
Boston needs to at least turn Brown into help at center or ball handler. Something centered around Troy Murphy and Yves Missi is one possibility. Would love to get a #1 pick 6-7 years from now and roll the dice that it will be in the lottery.
Money is certainly going to part, if not all, of the driving factor here. I've been vocal in not wanting to pay Brown on an extension. First, it's three years away - which makes offering it now a risky commitment, and second, I'm not sure Brown's impact-to-cost value will reflect well at that price and age.
I'm also on board with flipping him for the right package. I've seen a few good ones, to be fair. I'm also aware that trading Brown will create a gap on the wing that will need to be plugged, along with the guard and center positions that already need addressing.
I do hope, that however long this Brown situation takes, Brad continues to explore options for the rest of the roster. However, I'm also aware that it's hard to improve a team when you don't know what gaps will be there after a trade.
Pg for Jb 🤦♂️
C's sign Mitchall Robinson? Keeper or move with JB to Portland Ja or Scoot, Avdija Clingan?
I assume he’s here to stay. But you never know
I think Portland is still happening, best offer if includes Avdija and Ja or Scoot Sharpe and picks, maybe Mitch for Clingan. Queta for Carlson? Hopefully no Rob Will
Ja to Blazers to be rerouted to Boston or Avdija Scoot, Sharpe or camara and Yang to Boston? Ja Dame JB Clingan Camara could be a lineup as could Scoot White/sharpe Avdija, Tatum FA Big Or Scoot Murphy Avdija Tatum Mamukeilashvilli?
hoping for Ja Murphy Simons or Kuminga Avdjia Tatum Clingan
What are the Hornets doing? Could they offer Naz Reid, Christian Anderson Royce O Neal, and like 6 picks for JB? Kon or Miller?
Portland now seems to be the top candidate but would have to give up Avdija and or Clingan and seem to be hesitant to. Been a long time since 77 the longest drought now since the Knicks won? What is Charlotte doing?
AT a nice shout out!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWuCKuABlhQ
I'm curious: if the Celtics were going to win another title with JT/JB, what would that offense need to look like? I actually don't have a problem with their default style: maxing out the spacing mitigates Tatum's weakness driving to the hoop and makes the passing reads easier for both JT and JB.
My concern is that they don't have a counter when defenses key in on this in the playoffs. Neither guy can pass well enough to really punish doubles/help defense, and the rest of the roster doesn't have the chops to drive against a rotating defense. The title team worked because Jrue Holiday was a real, starter caliber point guard and Porzingis/Horford were centers that can space the floor. So you had a Jrue pick and roll to fall back on, true 5 out spacing, and a defense with no weak link. I don't think the Celtics have the cap room to replicate that.
Sup, Sam?
You make a good point. With JT and JB, the ideal system involves legitimate spacing across the board, along with a guard who can invert the floor (operate in the dunker spot, screen for bigs, be a roller) so that mismatches generate on the fly and cutters can add additional rim-pressure.
When Holiday was traded, that floor inversion left with him. Don't get me wrong, there are other ways to win with JT and JB, but finding the pieces will also be a tough ask, especially as the team continues to naturally get more expensive.
Even if Brad Stevens does find a way to get the necessary pieces together, how long can that iteration of the roster last before another retooling prospect needs to occur?
Getting Tatum to lean into his playmaking and post work, while surrounding him with athletes who can score on the two primary levels, makes the most sense at this point (from a cost + retool perspective).
At least, that's where my opinion is currently leading, if we operate under the assumption Brown won't be back next season.
I'm intrigued by JT in the post with cutters whirling around as a counter, but it feels like it leans into his least efficient skills (rim pressure and passing) at the expense of his strength (reliably generating 3 point looks and attacking off the catch).
Operating under the trade JB assumption, I feel like a fast guard that isn't a defensive liability (probably can't swing De'Aaron Fox, but that's the archetype) could work? That, or a Sengun-style center that can pass from the elbow instead of having Tatum manage that.
I just struggle because Coby White just signed for 25M a year. That's basically the "minimum" level of guard talent I think the JT/JB combo need to contend and his salary is out of reach for the Celtics. So I think you're stuck trading real rotation pieces to get a better fit. Maybe you trade White for a lead guard, hope Scheierman/Walsh/Hugo can fill White's role, and roll the dice on Queta as your center? Maybe you can get Kornet or a comparable backup center in the trade market.
I’d argue that passing is Tatum’s best skill outside of scoring. He’s one of the best playmaking forwards in the NBA, and the clear-cut best passer on the current roster. His AST% has stat between 16.4% and 20.5% over the past few years, which puts him among the elite front court playmakers.
As for rim-pressure, in the two seasons before his injury, he shot 72% at the rim, which is higher than JB has in his career (not a knock on JB at all, just using him to illustrate my point). Granted JB’s rim frequency is higher, but Tatum is certainly capable of being a rim-pressure guy, I just wouldn’t want that for him post injury, which is why I think the post would be a good option for him.
In terms of counters, I think it’s more about getting creative with the way you manipulate the defense. Screening actions, where the decoy’s are being run, and why. Inverting the floor, and most importantly, finding ways to get into the paint and make decisions. Ideally, you want a guard who can do some of this - it’s kind of why I sold myself on Collin Sexton after the season ended.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/nba-writer-identifies-this-eastern-conference-rising-team-that-should-prioritize-landing-jaylen-brown/ar-AA26D0x9?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=6a3ea8e302eb4878a4c9f7f6206c75e7&ei=16
Why the ask should be Jalen Johnson, Kingston Flemings, Okongwu, and Rissacher to make the $ work
Standard Celtic practice when you don't win and especially when knocked out in the first round, you have to look to get back to the top. In reality JB has been offered for AD, KD, and Giannis, 3 future HOF and on the last 2 Brad valued him as equal and wouldn't give up a ton extra. Any other GM would have did the same but many would have pulled the trigger and given up a ton of players and picks. Don't think for a second Brad and JB have not been in communication. As Tim K and Brad have said having 2 supermax players creates challenges. We really can't have 2 guys in their 30's making $60M-$70M+ so now is the time to sell high and try to get JB to a destination that isn't a Washington or Sacramento lol. Watch the Jazz, Spurs, Suns, Blazers maybe NOLA or the Hawks. Brad also needs to consider not loading up an eastern competitor, why unless the Hawks are willing to part with multiple key pieces, that may not happen. Jaylen Brown on the Hawks without taking Johnson and a few of Flemings/Daniels Okongwu/Ejiofor, Rissacher would not be good. I am sure they are countering with Kuminga which may not be bad. instead of Johnson. Have had a weird feeling about Dylan Harper and the C's for some time??
Hey John!
I would tentatively add GSW as a potential landing spot - they have the young guys and draft picks to make an interesting offer. Although I'd want to steer clear of absorbing Butler's contract, which makes things tough.
I do agree, though, that this move feels somewhat driven by cap flexibility, both now and in the years to come. I would be open to sending JB to Atlanta, but like you, I would want a return that stopped them from becoming a powerhouse in the process.
As for Harper, I think that could make a ton of sense, i'm just not sure the Spurs would move on from him after the rookie season he had. From Boston's side, any deal with the Spurs should start and stop with Harper being the first name put on the table, imo.
Hey AT, Not sure on GSW don't think they have any young players we value and would have to include Butler or Steph to match salaries , and agree run from Butler! Charlotte may be interesting with this $40M exception but would need to include Knueppel or Miller and Reid? I know many are not big on him but I would be after Ja Morant for White or this exception. Ja with the J's, or if JB gone with Knueppel Reid and JT? I have no concerns taking Ja especially for White's bad contract and Hauser or picks, Do you think Brad can get Turner to fill the Vucevic spot? Simons back? Agree with Spurs No harper no deal.
I’m probably a little higher on Podz and Moody than I should be, but agree matching salaries is tough.
As for Charlotte, their TPE doesn’t make a difference here. Brown earns more than the TPE, and you can’t add players salaries and a TPE together to get to Brown’s number - goes against the CBA Rules.
Charlotte do have other ways of getting there, though, so they’re not out of the race
I like Moody, but think Scheierman is better than Podz so he is somewhat redundant. If they still had Kuminga that might have worked as it may with Hawks if they give other players. Would you do JB scheierman for Kuminga, Rissacher Flemings, and Okongwu?
Hi Adam. At the end of the season, I felt that it made more sense to trade Tatum for major pieces that add up to his salary (throw in an extra $10M for Hauser, too) to get more of the major complementary pieces. I chose to keep brown over Tatum in my thinking because of the leadership that he pulled off during the regular season.
IMHO, the team wasn't missing Tatum per se in the finals, but a dominant big man and another guard. I don't see Tatum as having the same leadership skills as Brown.
If the toothpaste is out of the tube, then we have to get rid of Brown, but I am hoping not.
If it is possible for the Cs to user the MLE and TPE, we can get closer to true contention while getting ourselves in the position to break the cap the year after.
Dr. Gelston, how are you?
While I think your premise is fair, and the reasoning is sound, I'm on the opposite side here. Brown is a great player, but by all impact metrics, he's an All-Star. Tatum, on the other hand, is a superstar. I think it's somewhat easier to replace what you lose in Brown, rather than what you lose in Tatum.
Nevertheless, the fact is that it feels like one of the two will have to go. It's the easiest way to ease the cap sheet, create flexibility and open up new possibilities. Some will prefer Brown to go, others for Tatum.
As for leadership...I can't argue that Brown shone in that role last season. However, I do think there are multiple ways to define a leader and what that looks like. My question to you is whether your superstar needs to be the true leader on a roster, or whether should Brown leave, that's something Stevens must try and find on the market
Good question. We had Horford and Holliday as the leaders in the past. Smart was a leader. My thought is that Brown is a great combination of both leader and star which is really powerful. I don't think that he is a top 5 player, but he is more of a captain than anyone else on the team which put him into the MVP discussion last year.
The other reason for trading Tatum instead of Brown is that we could see what the team became with Brown leading, we really don't know what that is for Tatum. During the season without Tatum it felt more real what was missing from the team and it didn't feel like Tatum to me.
I say that within the context of the new CBA. It is not that I don't want or love having Tatum on the team, but I felt that he didn't yet fit in with the new flow of the team. It was Joe and Jaylen's team last year and it had a different feel to it. I would rather get 2 or 3 high quality stars or sub-star players to bring more balance to the team and fit into the Joe/Jaylen feel.
By the way, I miss your top 10 on Celtics Blog where you broke down the plays.
That’s fair. Brown + the current roster is proven, whereas Tatum leading a team isn’t. I would hope, given Tatum’s skill set, he can take his game to a new level if he’s given the opportunity to spearhead everything like Brown was last year (albeit under totally different circumstances).
The ideal pathway would be keeping them both. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem likely now, so if Brown does go, I hope we get a similar return of 2-3 good players who can make a genuine difference (plus a ‘grab em by the collar’ type leader)
Ahh, I miss writing those, too! I’ve toyed with something like that over here, but that 10 Takeaways is a CelticsBlog staple, and I never wanted to be copying what works for them. I have toyed with doing something like 3×3×3 (3 things on offense, 3 on defense, 3 takeaways) but not sure it’s what everyone would want.
The Brown / Tatum pairing has two issues in today's NBA:
1) They are both on SUPERmax contracts. Brown making $60m now and assuredly wants an extension that will take him over $70m. And Tatum will want same. It will only get harder and harder to build a roster around that.
2) Their skillset is too similar. Yeah, we've been hearing that for years and they still won a title together. But then you had Horford and KP as above-average bigs and Holiday's skill + poise. I'm not sure Boston can reload around JB and JT if you're paying them both $70m per year to age 35. Boston will soon have to give both Pritchard and Queta raises...or find a way to replace them.
It's not that Brown is a bad player or a bad teammate. I think it's more a reflection of economics in today's NBA. Jalen Duren is ELIGIBLE for a supermax, but you can bet the Pistons don't want to pay that and would run into the same team building issues if Duren and Cade were both highly paid. And Thompson extension is waiting in the wings.
Boston needs to at least turn Brown into help at center or ball handler. Something centered around Troy Murphy and Yves Missi is one possibility. Would love to get a #1 pick 6-7 years from now and roll the dice that it will be in the lottery.
Hey Tim!
Money is certainly going to part, if not all, of the driving factor here. I've been vocal in not wanting to pay Brown on an extension. First, it's three years away - which makes offering it now a risky commitment, and second, I'm not sure Brown's impact-to-cost value will reflect well at that price and age.
I'm also on board with flipping him for the right package. I've seen a few good ones, to be fair. I'm also aware that trading Brown will create a gap on the wing that will need to be plugged, along with the guard and center positions that already need addressing.
I do hope, that however long this Brown situation takes, Brad continues to explore options for the rest of the roster. However, I'm also aware that it's hard to improve a team when you don't know what gaps will be there after a trade.